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May. 4th, 2010 02:41 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
geebsTV Commentary:
24- A further weapons analysis. So in the scene I was babbling about, Cole and Jack go in light, Jack armed with a USP, Cole with a Glock. For people of their skill, a decent choice, as their marksmanship is good enough that they can use well-aimed shot placement to take the guys down. I guess my issue in this whole scene was that there was no reason for Jack to switch to the Judge there at the end. Now, I'm not knocking the Judge as an effective weapon, but as is my complaint with the snipers not using semi-auto rifles over bolt actions at short ranges where rapid follow up shots are more important that absolute accuracy, its not the right weapon for the job.
Before I go into that, let me go into a treatise about jacket concealable firearms. You have your pistols, chambered in a variety of calibers. Then there's your machine pistols/submachine guns/PDWs, also chambered for many of the same calibers, not as accurate as a standard pistol, but making up for it with auto fire capability. Then you have sawed off shotguns or things like the Judge, upsized revolvers chambered for .410 shotgun rounds, which while not as devastating as double ought buckshot, still make a bigger hole than a pistol.
The pistol is the bread and butter, your all purpose gun. Easily drawable for use in a pinch, and in the hands of a skilled shooter, what it lacks in power (well, compared to a submachine gun or shotgun), it makes up for in ease of bullet placement, so you can target vital points like the head or heart. You want a chambering no less than .38 special or 9mm. Anything smaller isn't powerful enough, even with shot placement. Besides, things like .25s and .380 acps are made for ultra concealability, a last ditch effort sort of gun, for use when a guy is right on you and they can't think you possibly have a weapon because its so small. So they aren't all that accurate either- you basically have to press it up right against something vital of the guy. But, they make 9mms (even .45s!) almost as concealable as those kinda guns, and seriously, recoil wise, anybody should be able to handle a 9mm. As I said, the use of such a small gun is to be able to have a small weapon hidden on you that's can escape detection as a "just in case" sort of thing, you don't want to actually want to get in a prolonged gun battle with it.
Ideally, with a "good-sized" caliber pistol (9mm, .357 sig, .40 s&w, .45acp), your ideal range is 15 to 25 feet, with the capability of a good marksman to line up a good shot up to as far as 60 to 90 feet away if he has the chance to. So, in hectic CQB, its a good choice for all sitches.
Now, the PDW/machine pistol/subgun, they're chambered for many of the same calibers as the pistols. Some machine pistols are derived from normal semi-autos, so they can be as accurate in semi-auto fire as the pistols they're based off of. But they're real use is in suppressive fire. The movie has guys with submachine guns just holding down the trigger and unloading bullet after bullet into guys, and that's not real life. Such weapons have a capacity of 30-50 rounds at most, and with their firing rate, you'll go through the clip instantly if you hold the trigger down for more than a few seconds. You want to use it to squeeze a few rounds off very quickly to cause your opponents to keep their heads down/stay back while you have time to get into a more advantageous tactical position. Otherwise, you'd use it as a less accurate pistol. Rather than going for good shot placement, you're shotgun-ing it. But rather than a cluster of buckshot pellets, its a small grouping of pistol caliber rounds. Like a shotgun, rather than hoping to hit a vital part, you're hoping to make enough holes in the person to incapacitate them.
Now, the PDWs can actually be chambered for calibers that have a smaller diameter than even a .25 (like the 4.6mm rounds used by the MP7 and the 5.7mm rounds of the P90). But they make up for it in velocity. Rememeber, force is mass times velocity squared. Though the rounds are small, they're going fast. This is good against body armor, because the small head of the rounds cuts through the threads of a ballistic vest like a hot knife through butter and the threads don't retard its velocity quick enough to stop it from penetrating.
Remember, a vest works so, the ballistic threads "catch" the bullet, and the thick weave (usually combined with some trauma plate behind it) tries to absorb that kinetic energy and disperse it over a wider area of your body. So, it will still hurt like shit, but, the bullet is not perforating you and destroying internal organs, and the energy is dispersed so rather than all that energy going into a small point and still causing massive internal damage while not penetrating, its dispersed over a large area, weaker and such that the body can better take the hit.
The problem with these smaller, high velocity rounds though is yeah, they go through armor, but since they're going so fast, they don't tumble inside the body, so basically all you're doing is making a 4-6mm hole in them. Which is bad, but unless it hits something vital, its not gonna put them down before they do the same to you.
Conversely, big guns like the Desert Eagle and other magnum sized revolvers, they're maximizing the "M" part of force. So while velocity is squared and will provide more force, a pretty big M can be just as devastating. Consider things like the .44 magnum or the .50 AE- they may not be going as fast as a 4.6mm PDW round, but they're making a way bigger hole (around half an inch!). Plus, since they're not going as fast, they "crumple" easier, making that half an inch hole even bigger as it goes through.
Finally, things like sawed-off shotguns and .410 pistols like the judge, they're not very accurate, but at ranges of 10 to 15 feet, that's fine, fire off in the general direction and you'll get a good hit in. And with shot-filled shells like buckshot, its like getting hit with several pistol rounds at once. What's particularly interesting about the Judge though is that unlike your standard shotgun, its barrel is rifled, rather than smoothbore. Thus, the shot going through it has a spin to it. So normally, the shot doesn't really spread until about 10 to 15 feet. At 5 feet, they're so close together you're not making a hole bigger than its cartridge size (though .410 of an inch is still a relatively big hole to be making in a person). But the judge is firing a spinny spread, so at really close ranges (~5ft) you're sending a large clump of lead down range, making for a way bigger hole (a couple of inches in diameter!)
That being said, it would be more reasonable if Jack started with the Judge to "clear some space" and then transitioned to his handgun once he was in a more advantageous tactical position. Bringing the MP-7 would've made more sense at the tail end of that altercation. But they had it ass backwards. Since they had no silencers on their pistols but were sneaking around, they wanted to be putting their opponents down quick if they had to fire their weapon, because the shot would've brought more enemies their way.
So, it would've made more sense if Jack had been using the judge when he had snuck up relatively close to someone, then transitioned to his pistol once he was within range of Dana and had to make accurate shots. Or after he killed DB Sweeney and those guys showed up right at the door (and less than 10 feet away), him using the Judge to put them down quick would make more sense. But as it was, he was using his skilled marksmanship to put the guys down, and for some reason he switches to the weapon that's devastating only at close range to stop guys from charging down a long hallway at him? Since he was covering Cole, letting them get that close doesn't make much sense tactically. Getting them to duck their heads and stay back via suppressive fire from a compact automatic weapon would be smarter.
24- A further weapons analysis. So in the scene I was babbling about, Cole and Jack go in light, Jack armed with a USP, Cole with a Glock. For people of their skill, a decent choice, as their marksmanship is good enough that they can use well-aimed shot placement to take the guys down. I guess my issue in this whole scene was that there was no reason for Jack to switch to the Judge there at the end. Now, I'm not knocking the Judge as an effective weapon, but as is my complaint with the snipers not using semi-auto rifles over bolt actions at short ranges where rapid follow up shots are more important that absolute accuracy, its not the right weapon for the job.
Before I go into that, let me go into a treatise about jacket concealable firearms. You have your pistols, chambered in a variety of calibers. Then there's your machine pistols/submachine guns/PDWs, also chambered for many of the same calibers, not as accurate as a standard pistol, but making up for it with auto fire capability. Then you have sawed off shotguns or things like the Judge, upsized revolvers chambered for .410 shotgun rounds, which while not as devastating as double ought buckshot, still make a bigger hole than a pistol.
The pistol is the bread and butter, your all purpose gun. Easily drawable for use in a pinch, and in the hands of a skilled shooter, what it lacks in power (well, compared to a submachine gun or shotgun), it makes up for in ease of bullet placement, so you can target vital points like the head or heart. You want a chambering no less than .38 special or 9mm. Anything smaller isn't powerful enough, even with shot placement. Besides, things like .25s and .380 acps are made for ultra concealability, a last ditch effort sort of gun, for use when a guy is right on you and they can't think you possibly have a weapon because its so small. So they aren't all that accurate either- you basically have to press it up right against something vital of the guy. But, they make 9mms (even .45s!) almost as concealable as those kinda guns, and seriously, recoil wise, anybody should be able to handle a 9mm. As I said, the use of such a small gun is to be able to have a small weapon hidden on you that's can escape detection as a "just in case" sort of thing, you don't want to actually want to get in a prolonged gun battle with it.
Ideally, with a "good-sized" caliber pistol (9mm, .357 sig, .40 s&w, .45acp), your ideal range is 15 to 25 feet, with the capability of a good marksman to line up a good shot up to as far as 60 to 90 feet away if he has the chance to. So, in hectic CQB, its a good choice for all sitches.
Now, the PDW/machine pistol/subgun, they're chambered for many of the same calibers as the pistols. Some machine pistols are derived from normal semi-autos, so they can be as accurate in semi-auto fire as the pistols they're based off of. But they're real use is in suppressive fire. The movie has guys with submachine guns just holding down the trigger and unloading bullet after bullet into guys, and that's not real life. Such weapons have a capacity of 30-50 rounds at most, and with their firing rate, you'll go through the clip instantly if you hold the trigger down for more than a few seconds. You want to use it to squeeze a few rounds off very quickly to cause your opponents to keep their heads down/stay back while you have time to get into a more advantageous tactical position. Otherwise, you'd use it as a less accurate pistol. Rather than going for good shot placement, you're shotgun-ing it. But rather than a cluster of buckshot pellets, its a small grouping of pistol caliber rounds. Like a shotgun, rather than hoping to hit a vital part, you're hoping to make enough holes in the person to incapacitate them.
Now, the PDWs can actually be chambered for calibers that have a smaller diameter than even a .25 (like the 4.6mm rounds used by the MP7 and the 5.7mm rounds of the P90). But they make up for it in velocity. Rememeber, force is mass times velocity squared. Though the rounds are small, they're going fast. This is good against body armor, because the small head of the rounds cuts through the threads of a ballistic vest like a hot knife through butter and the threads don't retard its velocity quick enough to stop it from penetrating.
Remember, a vest works so, the ballistic threads "catch" the bullet, and the thick weave (usually combined with some trauma plate behind it) tries to absorb that kinetic energy and disperse it over a wider area of your body. So, it will still hurt like shit, but, the bullet is not perforating you and destroying internal organs, and the energy is dispersed so rather than all that energy going into a small point and still causing massive internal damage while not penetrating, its dispersed over a large area, weaker and such that the body can better take the hit.
The problem with these smaller, high velocity rounds though is yeah, they go through armor, but since they're going so fast, they don't tumble inside the body, so basically all you're doing is making a 4-6mm hole in them. Which is bad, but unless it hits something vital, its not gonna put them down before they do the same to you.
Conversely, big guns like the Desert Eagle and other magnum sized revolvers, they're maximizing the "M" part of force. So while velocity is squared and will provide more force, a pretty big M can be just as devastating. Consider things like the .44 magnum or the .50 AE- they may not be going as fast as a 4.6mm PDW round, but they're making a way bigger hole (around half an inch!). Plus, since they're not going as fast, they "crumple" easier, making that half an inch hole even bigger as it goes through.
Finally, things like sawed-off shotguns and .410 pistols like the judge, they're not very accurate, but at ranges of 10 to 15 feet, that's fine, fire off in the general direction and you'll get a good hit in. And with shot-filled shells like buckshot, its like getting hit with several pistol rounds at once. What's particularly interesting about the Judge though is that unlike your standard shotgun, its barrel is rifled, rather than smoothbore. Thus, the shot going through it has a spin to it. So normally, the shot doesn't really spread until about 10 to 15 feet. At 5 feet, they're so close together you're not making a hole bigger than its cartridge size (though .410 of an inch is still a relatively big hole to be making in a person). But the judge is firing a spinny spread, so at really close ranges (~5ft) you're sending a large clump of lead down range, making for a way bigger hole (a couple of inches in diameter!)
That being said, it would be more reasonable if Jack started with the Judge to "clear some space" and then transitioned to his handgun once he was in a more advantageous tactical position. Bringing the MP-7 would've made more sense at the tail end of that altercation. But they had it ass backwards. Since they had no silencers on their pistols but were sneaking around, they wanted to be putting their opponents down quick if they had to fire their weapon, because the shot would've brought more enemies their way.
So, it would've made more sense if Jack had been using the judge when he had snuck up relatively close to someone, then transitioned to his pistol once he was within range of Dana and had to make accurate shots. Or after he killed DB Sweeney and those guys showed up right at the door (and less than 10 feet away), him using the Judge to put them down quick would make more sense. But as it was, he was using his skilled marksmanship to put the guys down, and for some reason he switches to the weapon that's devastating only at close range to stop guys from charging down a long hallway at him? Since he was covering Cole, letting them get that close doesn't make much sense tactically. Getting them to duck their heads and stay back via suppressive fire from a compact automatic weapon would be smarter.
